An ice skating rink, at the Queen Mary, has already been tried. To my knowledge, it didn't produce the numbers that were anticipated. This being the case, Long Beach can expect this new proposal to fail. So, what else is new?
Todd
· 10 months ago
$300.000 could go to much more prudent use. Maybe a small skate park in downtown so kids won't be skating and hurting themselves at the Convention entrance and fountain area.
Make Downtown Long Beach Cool
· 10 months ago
This is really lame. Even if you attract that # of people that's not what it should really be about. What's your conversion factor from there? How many of those people are really going to be inspired to invest in the area just because you have ice skating three months out of the year and the rest of the time you suck. It's just another waste of money bandaid.
lbresident
· 10 months ago
I don't know whether this will work but I know we should ignore Juan Pardell's comments because he is jaded and never has anything constructive to say.
One thing that hurts downtown is it has nothing to get the Eastside LB residents down there except for the Aquarium. I actually think if they can do the ice rink and make it feel family friendly it could be a succesful draw. And if people from the Eastside go down there to ice skate, maybe they'll stay and have lunch and support some restaraunts.
And if they do that, maybe some day there will be some retail available for them to buy some things. (Now I'm talking crazy.)
Mike Ruehle
· 10 months ago
Hello lbresident,
Didn't Long Beach previously HAVE retail downtown? They are just completing driving out the last remaining retail hangers-on. Do you really think an ice arena would be attractive to them? Maybe a skate shop.
Every time I read about these types of deals, it makes me wonder who’s behind it that’s going to make money. I find it extremely unlikely that anything of this nature would cost only $300,000. That’s the hook to get Long Beach started. The true cost will be in the millions.
In October, City Council approved a Belmont Plaza Pool feasibility engineering study for over $500,000 to find out whether the existing pool should be replaced. Once that is done, the city will approve several million dollars for detailed engineering and $25 million for a new pool.
The City Parks and Rec Planner told the Belmont Shore Parking Commission that it cost over $50,000 to put in a bathroom at the Livingston Park Tot Lot.
There is no way that an ice area of ANY sort can be INSTALLED for $300,000. Just the city zoning and approval process may cost that much. Also, what will be the operating costs versus projected revenue? It will have to be staffed and probably require a police presence.
I’m all for improving downtown. We all know it needs it. However, the DLBA needs to get their facts correct and not try to feed us a pile of crap that will have to be subsidized by the city like all of the police officers needed on pine.
By the way, I may not agree with Juan on everything. But I do value his insight and the history of past mistakes he provides.
lbresident
· 10 months ago
I'm not sure what you're objecting to. All I'm saying is that Juan Pardell is not constructive and that and ice rink may help bring Eastside residents downtown if done well. Then again, it may be a horrible failure.
I have kids and live in one of the areas of the Eastside that many DW readers like to pick on and if the ice rink had easily available parking and felt family friendly / safe I'd probably take my kids down there. Heck I may even take them down there on the passport.
Dave in Alamitos Beach
· 10 months ago
This isn't THAT different from what I have suggested to friends: build SoCal's biggest (only?) slip-n-slide. Okay, ridiculous I know, but hear me out. It would be cheaper than the ice rink. You wouldn't have to pay to freeze water in Southern California (what a crazy idea), nor would you have to pay for ice skates AND liability from broken bones and cracked ribs.
The slip-n-slide would be protected with lots of foam underneath and could be made somewhat idiot proof. You don't need any special ability to strip off your clothes and hurl yourselves down 40 feet of plastic. Also, if you have to take off your clothes, you leave your guns at home. Snerk. Parents could have a cheap babysitter for them while they enjoy their overpriced coffee drink. And, let's face it, Long Beach gets a lot more hot days than cold days.
The only real problem with this plan as I see it, is that you should have businesses in place before people start showing up for whatever crazy thing you want to do, but alas, that's a bigger problem than public nudity and boisterousness.
LB City Girl
· 10 months ago
Slip and Slide gets my vote.
Diana Bosetti
· 10 months ago
Hmmm.... A giant slip-n-slide? I like it. Leave the kiddies at home though and instead bring a giant tube of Four Seasons Ice (google it). That would be a lot more fun that the ice we're gonna get.
Dave in Alamitos Beach
· 9 months ago
Thanks! And I assume that Four Seasons Ice is something I shouldn't look up while at work? ;-)
John_B
· 9 months ago
LOL...Dave's always good for more of the refreshing out-of-the-box thinking we need. And I especially like the "you leave your guns at home" part.
Bluff Heights Matt
· 10 months ago
Wow...what a bunch of negative group of readers this magazine has...I guess it goes along with the negative tone of the publication, itself.
As a member of the downtown business community, I can say that I'm very excited about this project and have been from the beginning. I'm baffled that some people think that bringing 10,000, 20,000 or 30,000 people into the area is going to HURT retailers?! What planet do you people live on?!
If an ice rink or any other event/promotion can get those people here, it's our job as the business community to convert those visitors into eaters and shoppers. Getting people into Long Beach and giving locals another reason to come experience what downtown has to offer is all we can ask.
The irony is that if there wasn't anything planned the same group of people would probably be complaining about that. Honestly, I love Long Beach, but the residents here are truly bizzare and in many cases just plain ignorant.
Dave in Alamitos Beach
· 10 months ago
Okay Matt, you can say whatever you want about the readers being negative, but you can't say that the District is negative. I think it is the biggest Long Beach booster that we have, and the best thing to happen to Long Beach generally in years.
Also, I don't think anyone at all is saying that this ice rink will "HURT retailers," in fact, I think most of us would think that it will help or at least not hurt retailers. The people we think it might hurt are the taxpayers of Long Beach.
lbresident
· 10 months ago
Come on Dave, The District has a complaining, negative slant to its articles. By their own admission, they are a "point of view" publication. And more often than not that point of view is one of complaining about how awful things are. And when they do write about something positive they almost always slide some comment in about how LB will probably mess it up.
Dave in Alamitos Beach
· 10 months ago
Ah, now I see "complaining" and "negative" are what I refer to as "sarcastic" and "snarky." Got it.
Juan Pardell
· 10 months ago
I must have hit a nerve with lbresident for him to feel I'm not constructive. If you want to ignore me, simply don't read my comments. However, I will point out facts that support my opinions. An ice skating rink, in downtown Long Beach, has already been tried. Honestly, do you believe that will bring residents from Belmont Shore and the Eastside to the downtown area? Every holiday season, San Francisco places an ice skating rink at Union Square. It does pretty well. However, you have a world class downtown to support it. That is not the case in Long Beach.
lbresident
· 9 months ago
You have consistently stated there is no hope for LB. So you come on these and other boards and say how everything LB has done is awful and all plans are awful. Obviously you have been hurt (maybe financially) in some way enough to continue posting about LB even though you no longer live here and apparently have no interest in seeing the place succeed. I can't ignore you because you constantly comment. I just wish you would post a positive suggestion once in awhile.
Juan Pardell
· 9 months ago
You're overstating. After all, I'm sure there are worse places on the planet than Long Beach. However, I don't see how you can ignore the mistakes that were made. Its not as if they're invisible. Cityplace and at the Pike are big blunders. Just looking at their results, its obvious not much thought was put into those projects. How has it impacted Long Beach. Well, your city is still subsidizing both to the tune of millions of dollars, when the desired result was supposed to yield a financial windfall for the taxpayers. Had that personally impacted me? No. But think of the many who purchased condos and lofts, based partly on the premise of a true downtown revitalization that failed to materialize. I would like to give a positive suggestion. However, just looking at the current state of downtown, I don't see how that is possible. Perhaps, start from scratch?
lbresident
· 9 months ago
You make the point in every single one of your posts that LB has had failures. Point made.
Next time you feel like posting on a topic about a city 500 miles away from where you live and on a city you seemingly have no ties to, maybe think about whether simply pointing out a past failure will do anything to help going forward. Saying Cityplace sucks does not help in the discussion of an ice rink for example. If you think the ice rink is a bad idea, say so and then maybe even propose a better idea.
I mean really, we don't need you do point out past mistakes. We drive/walk by them every day.
And if you see no hope for LB as you seem to state in your last post, do us all a favor and post in the SF Chronicle instead of here. I am all for different points of view and even some complaining (heck I read this rag all the time) but absence of anything constructive is just not helpful. And you have never posted anything constructive (to my knowledge anyway).
Juan Pardell
· 9 months ago
Look, past is prologue. In reference to this article, I'm stating spending $300,000 taxpayers dollars, for a concept that most likely won't work, is a waste of money. It seems no one in Long Beach city government is willing to learn from past mistakes. Then again, I shouldn't be the one complaining. That should be your job.
lbresident
· 9 months ago
OK. You're right. Long Beach's past mistakes will preclude the city from ever improving in any way. Let's all move to SF and then post complaints about our long not-forgotten city and never try to improve the place.
Juan Pardell
· 9 months ago
Improving Long Beach will cost lots and lost of money. That is something that Long Beach doesn't have. If your city had an environment, that persuaded developers to build the right types of projects, your hopes may have materialized. However, in regards to what came into the downtown area, Long Beach residents are stuck with decades worth of mistakes. Yes, do what I did. I left. No complaints on my end.
LB City Girl
· 9 months ago
I'm gonna have to agree with lbresident here...Juan-- it is kind of irritating to hear so much about how we should improve our city from someone who decided to bail out on it.
That said, I still enjoy your comments.
LB City Girl
· 10 months ago
Dave wasn't being negative, he offered a good solution, and presented it positively.
Matt wins for best comment on this article when he calls LB residents "truly bizarre!"
Diana Bosetti
· 10 months ago
Hi Matt,
I am glad that you weighed in with a comment. Personally, I hope that you are right. Ironically, I have a rather soft spot for ice rinks: I am a figure skating instructor (writing doesn't pay enough except to support my raging toffee nut latte habit) and I like the idea of taking my kids downtown to skate. In fact, we did that a year ago in San Jose. But that venue included an extremely elaborate Santa's village, carnival rides, lots and lots of retail, restaurants and a museum -- all within five minutes walking time.
In contrast, we went to Pine Avenue for dinner and to buy halloween costumes not too long ago. Maybe they saw one too many 'Scream' masks that night, but halfway through dinner they wanted to go home -- a byproduct of a rather belligerent guy sitting in the patio area of the restaurant who appeared to be loaded, and who eventually was escorted out. Despite it being October, it wasn't exactly the type of ambiance we were looking for. Now they refuse to go back.
I don't want to take away from the many fine restaurants that are downtown, or the good-intentions of the DLBA. But one has to ask if this is the best way for the organization to spend its funds when there's very little retail and some serious upkeep issues. Have you taken a good look at the deteriorated state of the curbs on Pine? Maybe a minute point, but those details are important. Also, once the skates are untied, then what? Sit outside the 7-Eleven to have a slurpee? Oh that's right, the bright blue screens around the planters make that impossible.
Over the years, city planners have jumped from one project to the next, thinking that their enthusiasm, and in some cases, bulliness, would make their ideas successful. But take a good look at the projects downtown, starting south at the aquarium then moving north to CityPlace. None of them tie in with one another, and as stand alones, they aren't a sufficient draw -- at least not for repeat visits. All that has been a result of poor planning, despite all the promises of "connectivity" that were made by former city hackers Bob Paternoster and Jim Hankla.
Maybe it's time to stop hijacking "new" ideas from other cities and instead start taking a look at some of our own tired, old ideas. Maybe then we can figure out a way to fix what's already here.
Bluff Heights Matt
· 9 months ago
Hi Diana,
Thanks for taking the time to respond. As a retailer and someone who is downtown on a daily basis, I appreciate your concerns and especially the experience you had with your kids.
However, your article, which was titled 'News' was nothing of the sort. It was pure editorial commentary. I won't sit here and say that everything the DLBA does is fantastic and I don't know that their ice rink idea will or won't have an impact on my business, but I don't see anyone else coming up with ideas for how to drive business and traffic to downtown over the course of the Holiday Season, when most people don't bother to come down here due to the absence of a Macy's or a Gap. I think it's worth a shot!
Many feel that there isn't any shopping to be done here, but the truth is that there's a lot going on here. We may have a different shopping experience, with boutique shops, handmade clothing, etc, but there is a lot available here and we need to get people here to support the existing businesses.
I also find it interesting that you mention in our article that the DLBA doesn't have a good track record...but to what exactly are you referring? You don't back up your assertions or accusations with any facts, which is one of my biggest pet peeves when coming from someone who claims to be a 'news journalist.' I've participated in some of their advertising promotions and have gotten a great response. And many of their events draw big crowds, which is more than I can say for the last public event the District put on...oh, that's right...the District doesn't do events because you're all too busy criticizing others who do.
If you have problems with the curbs in Downtown, call the City, which is the entity responsible for them. That's who I call on almost a weekly basis (and I agree with you that some of our curbs need to be addressed!). And you may complain about the blue structures outside of 7-11 which keep you from sitting there and enjoying a Slurpee, but guess what...they have also kept the homeless from sitting there and collecting money - a far more serious deterrant to visitors than you not having a place to sit...outside of a 7-11 (seriously? Have you ever seen a 7-11 that has outside seating?!?!)
While you and I can agree there's a disconnect between certain downtown projects and areas, that's no reason to constantly rip on new ideas that haven't been tried in our city that could actually have an impact on the businesses that are here, investing in downtown and needing every bit of help we can get in order to stay afloat.
Rather than being so negative, maybe you could do a story about the great things happening and available in downtown that would actually help us.
Juan Pardell
· 9 months ago
Matt. I can think of two over-hyped DLBA concepts that literally failed to attract the amount of projected audience that was expected: 1) Long Beach Live! 2) The Amgen Bike Tour
lbresident
· 9 months ago
Very well said.
lbresident
· 9 months ago
to Matt that is, very well said
Juan Pardell
· 9 months ago
Did I forget to mention New Year's Eve on the Promenade? That was another DLBA failure.
Diana Bosetti
· 9 months ago
Matt:
Hello again. I can understand why you are requesting that the DW write a story about the "great things happening" in the downtown area. As a merchant, you have high hopes for success -- and as you should. Unfortunately, having witnessed a series of planning missteps from city lackeys over the years, that type of optimism doesn't come so easily.
I'm assuming that you have been a part of the downtown area for some time? So then you might remember in 1994 when John Morris put a few tables and chairs out front -- a move that brought swift penalities and threatening letters from city staff.
You might also remember when Z Gallerie went before the planning commission to open up on Pine. Sadly, most of the planning commissioners had not even researched what Joe Ziden's company was all about -- but they sure didn't hesitate to strong-arm him into restoring the sunbeam mural inside the building. A project that if I remember correctly, cost about $10,000. It wasn't so much what the planning commission was asking Ziden to do, but how they treated him like an enemy until he agreed to do it.
Then 7-Eleven moved in, and a slew of Pine avenue merchants let out a collective outcry. Not the kind of image they were trying to convey, they said.
At the same time, countless meetings were being held regarding the aquarium and Queensway Bay project: I can't tell you how many people spoke up, loudly, about how the Pike (and two parking structures) would act like a Berlin Wall that would separate the aquarium from Pine Avenue. Or how no city could possibly support the sheer volume of retail that would be needed to fill Pine, the Pike, Shoreline Village and Queensway Bay. Nobody listened. Also, from what I remember, the DLBA was pretty quiet. In other words, it was hardly an advocate for the very constituents whose assessments were keeping the organization going.
You might wonder why I'm reaching so far back into the historical archives here. I think that both of us would agree that the soured relationship between the DLBA and many of the merchants in the area has greatly improved over the years. Still, I believe that the city, and sometimes the DLBA, continues to turn a deaf ear towards those who are actually invested in the downtown. That's too bad, because their memories are long, and their recollections are clear. So when they say that the $300,000 for a temporary outdoor ice rink may not be the best use of their assesed fees, maybe it's time that somebody listened to them.
I don't think that's being negative. That's called good business.
Bluff Heights Matt
· 9 months ago
First off, there are many things we can look to in the past that weren't handled the way they should've been. That's more than fair. But why keep harping on them instead of focusing on ways we can fix things moving forward?
And if you think that becasue you quote two people in your article who are against the idea of an ice rink that's a fair representation of the collective opinion of all who are invested in downtown, you are gravely mistaken.
Your article was entirely one-sided. You didn't bother to back up your assertions (even many of the examples you site above have nothing to do with the DLBA)...and your journalistic research and these assertions are based on "from what you can remember"?! It's no wonder the District has no clout and no respect.
And by the way, I think $300,000 to put in an ice rink for two months of the year is a steal! If it draws 20,000 people into downtown, parking in our structures, hopefully eating in our restaurants, etc then it's well worth the investment. Look at how much money is poured into events like Grand Prix (literally millions) - a 3 day event. University by the Sea spent almost $150,000 on a one day event last year that supposedly brought in 8,000 peope.
If you want to write stories about what people want and don't want, I suggest you talk to more than two people on the street. If you want to continue to write one-sided "news" pieces that harm the merchants and residents of downtown, keep up the not-so-good work.
LB City Girl
· 10 months ago
I don't even know how to ice skate.
Dave Wielenga
· 10 months ago
"Point of view essays" ... hmmm ... where did you hear me say that? Because I say it a lot ... most recently, I think, on a panel at Leadership Long Beach. Next time we're in the same place, introduce yourself to me, lbresident. I value your readership and your contributions to community discourse.
lbresident
· 9 months ago
I was quoting you. (sorry if it wasn't clear.) Actually read it in one of your posts.
I don't think we're ever in the same place but if for some reason we are I'll introduce myself.
Dave Wielenga
· 9 months ago
No, it was clear. That was my reference when I asked you where you heard me say that? I forgot that I wrote it, too. Anyway, I'm sincere about my appreciation for your readership and comments.
Dave Wielenga
· 10 months ago
Hello Bluff Heights Matt! Our news section often points out the problems in the city, and maybe by some definition that is being negative. But the rest of The District is a freekin' hymn to this city, exploring and celebrating its arts, music, cool places to live, interesting people, movies---and last week even its teams of college scientists who shot off a rocket in the desert. As for this story on the ice rink, I think for the most part it simply presented points of view---those of Mr. Sheldon and those of two restaurateurs...both of whom went on the record with their criticisms. It also pointed out that this is not a new idea and that it is a little risky. If you support the ice rink, perhaps the best way to really make it carry weight is to say it loudly and proudly, rather than behind an anonymous name. I am not criticizing you for doing so, just saying that it would give your support the added boost of authenticity. Meanwhile, Go Beach!
Make Downtown Long Beach Cool
· 10 months ago
Bluffer Matt, you might want to reconsider your position. Perhaps everyone here is spot on and you're the ignorant one.
As a downtown business owner, haven't you realized that over time none of the ideas that have been delivered to the downtown have really resulted in a sustainable advantage for the area. This article points that out. The fact is that most of these ideas were just plain lame in the first place.
It's not just about creating a draw don't you see that yet. We've been hosting the Grand Prix for 30 years now so if it was just about major events we should be doing pretty well. Downtowns need to sustain themselves from within. What makes most cities cool isn't just the places to go and the things you can do, it's the people, the vibe and the energy created by the locals. Downtown LB does not have that and no ice skating rink is going to solve this problem.
Now don't get me wrong, i'm not against events. I'm just saying they aren't the solution.
The district keeps it real, which is more then i can say for most publications in LB. One of the big problems downtown is that everyone just keeps drinking the kool aid. That leads to a false sense of reality and a lack of progression and new ideas. We need to keep it fresh and funky and stop looking towards the same uncreative people to deliver inspiration.
If inclined to do so you can follow me at twitter.com/mdlbc
Dave in Alamitos Beach
· 9 months ago
300K is a lot of money that's for sure, and I wouldn't 'mind going ice skating downtown...once. But I'd rather have some slightly simpler reasons to go downtown. For example:
How hard would it be for the city to host a "Green Xmas Tree Contest?" Use all the street trees on Pine Avenue downtown so you don't have to cut down any new ones. Then the city provides electrical power to each tree and every interested organization gets to "adopt" a tree for Xmas and decorate it as they see fit. The winner gets some sort of tacky Dancing With The Stars type trophy at a fun party. The "interested organizations" could be CSULB fraternities, the Boy Scouts, the Gay Parade, China Shipping, LB Yacht Club, etc. It's an idea anyway.
Or why not take some of that money and rent/give away storefront space to local artists. You'd only have to give them a couple hundred square feet in every available window. Ask the artists to create their work in the windows and then leave the work there. I'd love to see painting, sculpture, stained glass, dance practice, ethnic basket weaving, etc. The list is endless, as is the talent no doubt.
There - two ideas plus the slip-n-slide in five minutes of thought. And I know there are professionals and brainiacs out there who can do a lot better than me.
Shea Shizzle
· 9 months ago
HAHAHA... an Ice Rink huh... amazing how easy it is to convince desperate people that such ideas are "good" ideas. I ASSURE you that the DLBA is NOT the only group in the city that has "ideas" to help turn downtown LB around... its just that the people that can get these types of big events done ONLY listen to organizations like the DLBA. I have been doing events in this city for 5 years or so, I have thousands of ideas, just like other actual "DOWNTOWN RESIDENTS", but no one listens to the actual people that LIVE in downtown... but that is going to change this year suckas.
Juan Pardell
· 9 months ago
So far, I recall twice where a seasonal ice skating rink, in downtown Long Beach, was attempted. The first one occurred at the Quen Mary, and didn't do very well. The second was at the sports arena, as part of a promotion for the Ice Dogs, where anyone was allowed to skate on the venue's ice rink. I don't believe it met its one-day projections. I'd be very suspicious whenever the DLBA proposes any event. Normally, the attendance figures don't match their estimates. Remember the Amgen Bike Tour and how many kept saying there were 250,000 spectators? http://www.lbreport.com/news/feb07/amgen4.htm We all know that was a fabrication. I know there are hits & misses. However, the DLBA has a tendency to exaggerate the success of Long Beach events.
John_B
· 9 months ago
Diana: Very nicely done…informative as well as entertaining. I especially like the bit about the lumpy gum from the Crimean War.
Many, you now included, have looked at the various DLBA projects with a jaundiced eye since their overall track record cannot be considered particularly stellar, not by any stretch. Being critical of such publicly supported organizations and activities is important, but I think that being “constructively critical” is even more so.
You characterize this Ice Rink idea as “The latest scheme in the long, strange and relentlessly frustrating quest to revitalize downtown…” Fair enough. As Juan Pardell has kindly reminded us, we tried a public skating rink twice before: once at the Queen Mary, and even with that stately Lady of the Oceans to help draw crowds, that rink eventually folded just like many of the other attractions we once tried there; and once at the arena, with similar result.
You mention that John Morris opined, in his quintessential no-nonsense manner: “The making of another catastrophe is on its way”. John has made it very clear, and very often, what he feels the answer is…events. Host interesting and entertaining events and the people will come, and keep coming…events and a better way to tie upper Pine with the Shoreline and Pike areas. People, like Mr. Morris, who invest both themselves and their livelihood in the success of upper Pine, in my view, demonstrate a courage few others can claim. We would be wise to listen when they speak.
But what would you recommend, Diana? From your thoughts and the manner in which you communicate them we can deduce that you’re pretty bright. From your topics we can surmise that you care deeply for and are very much involved with many aspects of our fine city. So what do *you* think might work downtown, if not an Ice Rink, then what?
Dave thinks a giant slip-n-slide might work and, indeed, it might. Stranger ideas have been floated and some of them might even have worked, either alone or in concert with other ideas, if given a chance.
I join with Mr. Morris in believing that quality events will get the people coming but I think more is needed to *keep* them coming. I personally feel we would gain much more than we would lose by completely closing upper Pine, between 1st and 6th, to vehicles. This would make the whole area far more pedestrian friendly (and we really do need to get folks out of their cars and spending money) and would better tie both sides of the street together in a far more “open marketplace” sort of atmosphere. Think Downtown Disney, but without all the annoying mice. Add better lighting, lots of street performers and then an authentic cable-car or monorail system to join upper Pine with Shoreline, the Pike and the Queen and I think a lot more people would want to visit, and keep visiting.
Those are my ideas, Diana.
What are yours?
Diana Bosetti
· 9 months ago
Hi John,
Well, let me first say thanks for the props, but frankly you probably give me too much credit. I don't hold myself above others (my dad would thump the top of my head if I did), nor do I believe that city planners or members of the DLBA are less intelligent. But I do wonder sometimes if egos have gotten in the way of good judgement. In my opinion, it just seems like too many of the decision makers have an over-inflated sense of what Pine Avenue should be, and not what it really is: A supplement to the surrounding neighborhood. Whether rich or poor, we all have the same need -- to find a place that has a lot of synergy, but is still a place we can sit down and kick up our heels.
I think that city planners need to focus on neighborhood infrastructure and open space first, regardless of whether it's for the rich or poor. Then let free enterprise take care of the rest.
This may not be feasible, or popular, but I've never understood the purpose of the Pike. If the Pike area would have instead been turned into a Mother's Beach/ park/sports area, I really think it would have been a hit. The City of Cerritos has mastered this concept . Throw in a state of the art library, and that makes for a pretty nice day: Aquarium, library, kayaking in a man-made lagoon, then lunch at Shoreline Village. Shoreline Drive would also need to be reconfigured so it doesn't feel like a freeway.
CityPlace is fine as it is, with the exception of a little maintenance and a mainstream grocery store.
As for Pine, and a good portion of the downtown, I've always thought the area should be more of a business district. Yes, that would equate to more highrises -- an idea that was nixed by city officials long ago -- despite being centrally located between LA and Orange County, as well as sitting next door to two of the worlds busiest ports. But over the last 15 years, there's been a demand for commercial space. Just look at the explosive growth of that sector in Irvine and all the way north into Yorba Linda. Yorba Linda! A city that's a hot, sticky dustbowl! The groundfloor of these highrises would be just what you'd expect in a business district: retail and restaurants, nightclubs, and an environment ripe for entertainment events. And yes, all this could include closing a portion of Pine -- where the existing historical buildings would be preserved, and venues like a farmer's market and Bikestation nurtured. An outdoor seasonal ice rink would also work well -- because there would be a clientele base to support it.
Next, there would need to be some serious sucking up to city planners in Signal Hill. They've got the land for residential development -- nice residential development -- to give both the white and blue-collared workers someplace to live. Granted every city is looking for that all powerful sales tax revenue, so there would likely need to be an equitable sales-tax sharing incentive between the two parties, not to mention a stronger nudging along of Craig Barto at Signal Hill Petroleum to actually do something with all that empty land.
After that, I think that real estate prices in neighborhoods just north of downtown would begin to rise on their own. People want to live closer to where they work and play, and there are a lot of historical homes that urban professionals would be chomping at the bit to acquire. And what about those crakerboxes? That's a little tougher. I am not a big fan of eminent domain at the expense of the poor. But some recent developments in Valencia and in Galveston, Texas, include a rather cool concept: affordable housing in square and u-shaped patterns, with open green space and community gardens in the middle. This type of residential living creates a sense of ownership in the community, even for renters.
Last but not least, the Long Beach area is extremely short on industrial space. Before letting out a collective gasp, industrial real estate is not what it was 20 years ago. I'm not talking smokestacks here, but rather newly constructed low-rise, divisible space on the westside. This type of development would have done well near the airport as well, but it's probably too late for that now.
So there you have it. Go easy on me. I don't pretend to be an expert.
LB City Girl
· 9 months ago
Did somebody say "monorail?"
forgettaboutit
· 9 months ago
Does the DLBA truly realize how small a 40' x 80' ice surface is? They expect how many skaters? And, how much are they really spending??? Forget about any safety concerns... Why be concerned if no thought is put towards it. Once again, only in Long Beach.
Make Downtown Long Beach Cool
· 9 months ago
Dave from Alamitos Beach. I really like the direction of your ideas that you were mentioning. It just goes to show you that good ideas don't need to cost a lot of money and can come from anyone. I really like the tree idea, but first we need to start with better street trees.
Also, the pike idea is great as i feel the same about that damn place. The roads running through that place are such a bad idea. To fill them with water would be interesting or at least fill them with landscaping, water features, etc. The last time i checked you can't drive a car through the irvine spectrum or the block in orange. not that i'm a big fan of those places, but at least they don't have roads running through the middle of them that make no sense.
Dave in Alamitos Beach
· 9 months ago
Well thanks for saying such nice things about my crazy-but-cheap ideas. I wish there was a place for us collect all of these ideas and have everyone comment on them. The "new media" leads to a lot of balkanization and that doesn't help form a consensus of thought.
I don't mind people stealing my ideas, in fact I wish they would. Okay Suja? Robert Garcia? Anyone?
All Comments
One thing that hurts downtown is it has nothing to get the Eastside LB residents down there except for the Aquarium. I actually think if they can do the ice rink and make it feel family friendly it could be a succesful draw. And if people from the Eastside go down there to ice skate, maybe they'll stay and have lunch and support some restaraunts.
And if they do that, maybe some day there will be some retail available for them to buy some things. (Now I'm talking crazy.)
Didn't Long Beach previously HAVE retail downtown? They are just completing driving out the last remaining retail hangers-on. Do you really think an ice arena would be attractive to them? Maybe a skate shop.
Every time I read about these types of deals, it makes me wonder who’s behind it that’s going to make money. I find it extremely unlikely that anything of this nature would cost only $300,000. That’s the hook to get Long Beach started. The true cost will be in the millions.
In October, City Council approved a Belmont Plaza Pool feasibility engineering study for over $500,000 to find out whether the existing pool should be replaced. Once that is done, the city will approve several million dollars for detailed engineering and $25 million for a new pool.
The City Parks and Rec Planner told the Belmont Shore Parking Commission that it cost over $50,000 to put in a bathroom at the Livingston Park Tot Lot.
There is no way that an ice area of ANY sort can be INSTALLED for $300,000. Just the city zoning and approval process may cost that much. Also, what will be the operating costs versus projected revenue? It will have to be staffed and probably require a police presence.
I’m all for improving downtown. We all know it needs it. However, the DLBA needs to get their facts correct and not try to feed us a pile of crap that will have to be subsidized by the city like all of the police officers needed on pine.
By the way, I may not agree with Juan on everything. But I do value his insight and the history of past mistakes he provides.
I have kids and live in one of the areas of the Eastside that many DW readers like to pick on and if the ice rink had easily available parking and felt family friendly / safe I'd probably take my kids down there. Heck I may even take them down there on the passport.
The slip-n-slide would be protected with lots of foam underneath and could be made somewhat idiot proof. You don't need any special ability to strip off your clothes and hurl yourselves down 40 feet of plastic. Also, if you have to take off your clothes, you leave your guns at home. Snerk. Parents could have a cheap babysitter for them while they enjoy their overpriced coffee drink. And, let's face it, Long Beach gets a lot more hot days than cold days.
The only real problem with this plan as I see it, is that you should have businesses in place before people start showing up for whatever crazy thing you want to do, but alas, that's a bigger problem than public nudity and boisterousness.
As a member of the downtown business community, I can say that I'm very excited about this project and have been from the beginning. I'm baffled that some people think that bringing 10,000, 20,000 or 30,000 people into the area is going to HURT retailers?! What planet do you people live on?!
If an ice rink or any other event/promotion can get those people here, it's our job as the business community to convert those visitors into eaters and shoppers. Getting people into Long Beach and giving locals another reason to come experience what downtown has to offer is all we can ask.
The irony is that if there wasn't anything planned the same group of people would probably be complaining about that. Honestly, I love Long Beach, but the residents here are truly bizzare and in many cases just plain ignorant.
Also, I don't think anyone at all is saying that this ice rink will "HURT retailers," in fact, I think most of us would think that it will help or at least not hurt retailers. The people we think it might hurt are the taxpayers of Long Beach.
Next time you feel like posting on a topic about a city 500 miles away from where you live and on a city you seemingly have no ties to, maybe think about whether simply pointing out a past failure will do anything to help going forward. Saying Cityplace sucks does not help in the discussion of an ice rink for example. If you think the ice rink is a bad idea, say so and then maybe even propose a better idea.
I mean really, we don't need you do point out past mistakes. We drive/walk by them every day.
And if you see no hope for LB as you seem to state in your last post, do us all a favor and post in the SF Chronicle instead of here. I am all for different points of view and even some complaining (heck I read this rag all the time) but absence of anything constructive is just not helpful. And you have never posted anything constructive (to my knowledge anyway).
That said, I still enjoy your comments.
Matt wins for best comment on this article when he calls LB residents "truly bizarre!"
I am glad that you weighed in with a comment. Personally, I hope that you are right. Ironically, I have a rather soft spot for ice rinks: I am a figure skating instructor (writing doesn't pay enough except to support my raging toffee nut latte habit) and I like the idea of taking my kids downtown to skate. In fact, we did that a year ago in San Jose. But that venue included an extremely elaborate Santa's village, carnival rides, lots and lots of retail, restaurants and a museum -- all within five minutes walking time.
In contrast, we went to Pine Avenue for dinner and to buy halloween costumes not too long ago. Maybe they saw one too many 'Scream' masks that night, but halfway through dinner they wanted to go home -- a byproduct of a rather belligerent guy sitting in the patio area of the restaurant who appeared to be loaded, and who eventually was escorted out. Despite it being October, it wasn't exactly the type of ambiance we were looking for. Now they refuse to go back.
I don't want to take away from the many fine restaurants that are downtown, or the good-intentions of the DLBA. But one has to ask if this is the best way for the organization to spend its funds when there's very little retail and some serious upkeep issues. Have you taken a good look at the deteriorated state of the curbs on Pine? Maybe a minute point, but those details are important. Also, once the skates are untied, then what? Sit outside the 7-Eleven to have a slurpee? Oh that's right, the bright blue screens around the planters make that impossible.
Over the years, city planners have jumped from one project to the next, thinking that their enthusiasm, and in some cases, bulliness, would make their ideas successful. But take a good look at the projects downtown, starting south at the aquarium then moving north to CityPlace. None of them tie in with one another, and as stand alones, they aren't a sufficient draw -- at least not for repeat visits. All that has been a result of poor planning, despite all the promises of "connectivity" that were made by former city hackers Bob Paternoster and Jim Hankla.
Maybe it's time to stop hijacking "new" ideas from other cities and instead start taking a look at some of our own tired, old ideas. Maybe then we can figure out a way to fix what's already here.
Thanks for taking the time to respond. As a retailer and someone who is downtown on a daily basis, I appreciate your concerns and especially the experience you had with your kids.
However, your article, which was titled 'News' was nothing of the sort. It was pure editorial commentary. I won't sit here and say that everything the DLBA does is fantastic and I don't know that their ice rink idea will or won't have an impact on my business, but I don't see anyone else coming up with ideas for how to drive business and traffic to downtown over the course of the Holiday Season, when most people don't bother to come down here due to the absence of a Macy's or a Gap. I think it's worth a shot!
Many feel that there isn't any shopping to be done here, but the truth is that there's a lot going on here. We may have a different shopping experience, with boutique shops, handmade clothing, etc, but there is a lot available here and we need to get people here to support the existing businesses.
I also find it interesting that you mention in our article that the DLBA doesn't have a good track record...but to what exactly are you referring? You don't back up your assertions or accusations with any facts, which is one of my biggest pet peeves when coming from someone who claims to be a 'news journalist.' I've participated in some of their advertising promotions and have gotten a great response. And many of their events draw big crowds, which is more than I can say for the last public event the District put on...oh, that's right...the District doesn't do events because you're all too busy criticizing others who do.
If you have problems with the curbs in Downtown, call the City, which is the entity responsible for them. That's who I call on almost a weekly basis (and I agree with you that some of our curbs need to be addressed!). And you may complain about the blue structures outside of 7-11 which keep you from sitting there and enjoying a Slurpee, but guess what...they have also kept the homeless from sitting there and collecting money - a far more serious deterrant to visitors than you not having a place to sit...outside of a 7-11 (seriously? Have you ever seen a 7-11 that has outside seating?!?!)
While you and I can agree there's a disconnect between certain downtown projects and areas, that's no reason to constantly rip on new ideas that haven't been tried in our city that could actually have an impact on the businesses that are here, investing in downtown and needing every bit of help we can get in order to stay afloat.
Rather than being so negative, maybe you could do a story about the great things happening and available in downtown that would actually help us.
Hello again. I can understand why you are requesting that the DW write a story about the "great things happening" in the downtown area. As a merchant, you have high hopes for success -- and as you should. Unfortunately, having witnessed a series of planning missteps from city lackeys over the years, that type of optimism doesn't come so easily.
I'm assuming that you have been a part of the downtown area for some time? So then you might remember in 1994 when John Morris put a few tables and chairs out front -- a move that brought swift penalities and threatening letters from city staff.
You might also remember when Z Gallerie went before the planning commission to open up on Pine. Sadly, most of the planning commissioners had not even researched what Joe Ziden's company was all about -- but they sure didn't hesitate to strong-arm him into restoring the sunbeam mural inside the building. A project that if I remember correctly, cost about $10,000. It wasn't so much what the planning commission was asking Ziden to do, but how they treated him like an enemy until he agreed to do it.
Then 7-Eleven moved in, and a slew of Pine avenue merchants let out a collective outcry. Not the kind of image they were trying to convey, they said.
At the same time, countless meetings were being held regarding the aquarium and Queensway Bay project: I can't tell you how many people spoke up, loudly, about how the Pike (and two parking structures) would act like a Berlin Wall that would separate the aquarium from Pine Avenue. Or how no city could possibly support the sheer volume of retail that would be needed to fill Pine, the Pike, Shoreline Village and Queensway Bay. Nobody listened. Also, from what I remember, the DLBA was pretty quiet. In other words, it was hardly an advocate for the very constituents whose assessments were keeping the organization going.
You might wonder why I'm reaching so far back into the historical archives here. I think that both of us would agree that the soured relationship between the DLBA and many of the merchants in the area has greatly improved over the years. Still, I believe that the city, and sometimes the DLBA, continues to turn a deaf ear towards those who are actually invested in the downtown. That's too bad, because their memories are long, and their recollections are clear. So when they say that the $300,000 for a temporary outdoor ice rink may not be the best use of their assesed fees, maybe it's time that somebody listened to them.
I don't think that's being negative. That's called good business.
And if you think that becasue you quote two people in your article who are against the idea of an ice rink that's a fair representation of the collective opinion of all who are invested in downtown, you are gravely mistaken.
Your article was entirely one-sided. You didn't bother to back up your assertions (even many of the examples you site above have nothing to do with the DLBA)...and your journalistic research and these assertions are based on "from what you can remember"?! It's no wonder the District has no clout and no respect.
And by the way, I think $300,000 to put in an ice rink for two months of the year is a steal! If it draws 20,000 people into downtown, parking in our structures, hopefully eating in our restaurants, etc then it's well worth the investment. Look at how much money is poured into events like Grand Prix (literally millions) - a 3 day event. University by the Sea spent almost $150,000 on a one day event last year that supposedly brought in 8,000 peope.
If you want to write stories about what people want and don't want, I suggest you talk to more than two people on the street. If you want to continue to write one-sided "news" pieces that harm the merchants and residents of downtown, keep up the not-so-good work.
I don't think we're ever in the same place but if for some reason we are I'll introduce myself.
As a downtown business owner, haven't you realized that over time none of the ideas that have been delivered to the downtown have really resulted in a sustainable advantage for the area. This article points that out. The fact is that most of these ideas were just plain lame in the first place.
It's not just about creating a draw don't you see that yet. We've been hosting the Grand Prix for 30 years now so if it was just about major events we should be doing pretty well. Downtowns need to sustain themselves from within. What makes most cities cool isn't just the places to go and the things you can do, it's the people, the vibe and the energy created by the locals. Downtown LB does not have that and no ice skating rink is going to solve this problem.
Now don't get me wrong, i'm not against events. I'm just saying they aren't the solution.
The district keeps it real, which is more then i can say for most publications in LB. One of the big problems downtown is that everyone just keeps drinking the kool aid. That leads to a false sense of reality and a lack of progression and new ideas. We need to keep it fresh and funky and stop looking towards the same uncreative people to deliver inspiration.
If inclined to do so you can follow me at twitter.com/mdlbc
How hard would it be for the city to host a "Green Xmas Tree Contest?" Use all the street trees on Pine Avenue downtown so you don't have to cut down any new ones. Then the city provides electrical power to each tree and every interested organization gets to "adopt" a tree for Xmas and decorate it as they see fit. The winner gets some sort of tacky Dancing With The Stars type trophy at a fun party. The "interested organizations" could be CSULB fraternities, the Boy Scouts, the Gay Parade, China Shipping, LB Yacht Club, etc. It's an idea anyway.
Or why not take some of that money and rent/give away storefront space to local artists. You'd only have to give them a couple hundred square feet in every available window. Ask the artists to create their work in the windows and then leave the work there. I'd love to see painting, sculpture, stained glass, dance practice, ethnic basket weaving, etc. The list is endless, as is the talent no doubt.
There - two ideas plus the slip-n-slide in five minutes of thought. And I know there are professionals and brainiacs out there who can do a lot better than me.
Many, you now included, have looked at the various DLBA projects with a jaundiced eye since their overall track record cannot be considered particularly stellar, not by any stretch. Being critical of such publicly supported organizations and activities is important, but I think that being “constructively critical” is even more so.
You characterize this Ice Rink idea as “The latest scheme in the long, strange and relentlessly frustrating quest to revitalize downtown…” Fair enough. As Juan Pardell has kindly reminded us, we tried a public skating rink twice before: once at the Queen Mary, and even with that stately Lady of the Oceans to help draw crowds, that rink eventually folded just like many of the other attractions we once tried there; and once at the arena, with similar result.
You mention that John Morris opined, in his quintessential no-nonsense manner: “The making of another catastrophe is on its way”. John has made it very clear, and very often, what he feels the answer is…events. Host interesting and entertaining events and the people will come, and keep coming…events and a better way to tie upper Pine with the Shoreline and Pike areas. People, like Mr. Morris, who invest both themselves and their livelihood in the success of upper Pine, in my view, demonstrate a courage few others can claim. We would be wise to listen when they speak.
But what would you recommend, Diana? From your thoughts and the manner in which you communicate them we can deduce that you’re pretty bright. From your topics we can surmise that you care deeply for and are very much involved with many aspects of our fine city. So what do *you* think might work downtown, if not an Ice Rink, then what?
Dave thinks a giant slip-n-slide might work and, indeed, it might. Stranger ideas have been floated and some of them might even have worked, either alone or in concert with other ideas, if given a chance.
I join with Mr. Morris in believing that quality events will get the people coming but I think more is needed to *keep* them coming. I personally feel we would gain much more than we would lose by completely closing upper Pine, between 1st and 6th, to vehicles. This would make the whole area far more pedestrian friendly (and we really do need to get folks out of their cars and spending money) and would better tie both sides of the street together in a far more “open marketplace” sort of atmosphere. Think Downtown Disney, but without all the annoying mice. Add better lighting, lots of street performers and then an authentic cable-car or monorail system to join upper Pine with Shoreline, the Pike and the Queen and I think a lot more people would want to visit, and keep visiting.
Those are my ideas, Diana.
What are yours?
Well, let me first say thanks for the props, but frankly you probably give me too much credit. I don't hold myself above others (my dad would thump the top of my head if I did), nor do I believe that city planners or members of the DLBA are less intelligent. But I do wonder sometimes if egos have gotten in the way of good judgement. In my opinion, it just seems like too many of the decision makers have an over-inflated sense of what Pine Avenue should be, and not what it really is: A supplement to the surrounding neighborhood. Whether rich or poor, we all have the same need -- to find a place that has a lot of synergy, but is still a place we can sit down and kick up our heels.
I think that city planners need to focus on neighborhood infrastructure and open space first, regardless of whether it's for the rich or poor. Then let free enterprise take care of the rest.
This may not be feasible, or popular, but I've never understood the purpose of the Pike. If the Pike area would have instead been turned into a Mother's Beach/ park/sports area, I really think it would have been a hit. The City of Cerritos has mastered this concept . Throw in a state of the art library, and that makes for a pretty nice day: Aquarium, library, kayaking in a man-made lagoon, then lunch at Shoreline Village. Shoreline Drive would also need to be reconfigured so it doesn't feel like a freeway.
CityPlace is fine as it is, with the exception of a little maintenance and a mainstream grocery store.
As for Pine, and a good portion of the downtown, I've always thought the area should be more of a business district. Yes, that would equate to more highrises -- an idea that was nixed by city officials long ago -- despite being centrally located between LA and Orange County, as well as sitting next door to two of the worlds busiest ports. But over the last 15 years, there's been a demand for commercial space. Just look at the explosive growth of that sector in Irvine and all the way north into Yorba Linda. Yorba Linda! A city that's a hot, sticky dustbowl! The groundfloor of these highrises would be just what you'd expect in a business district: retail and restaurants, nightclubs, and an environment ripe for entertainment events. And yes, all this could include closing a portion of Pine -- where the existing historical buildings would be preserved, and venues like a farmer's market and Bikestation nurtured. An outdoor seasonal ice rink would also work well -- because there would be a clientele base to support it.
Next, there would need to be some serious sucking up to city planners in Signal Hill. They've got the land for residential development -- nice residential development -- to give both the white and blue-collared workers someplace to live. Granted every city is looking for that all powerful sales tax revenue, so there would likely need to be an equitable sales-tax sharing incentive between the two parties, not to mention a stronger nudging along of Craig Barto at Signal Hill Petroleum to actually do something with all that empty land.
After that, I think that real estate prices in neighborhoods just north of downtown would begin to rise on their own. People want to live closer to where they work and play, and there are a lot of historical homes that urban professionals would be chomping at the bit to acquire. And what about those crakerboxes? That's a little tougher. I am not a big fan of eminent domain at the expense of the poor. But some recent developments in Valencia and in Galveston, Texas, include a rather cool concept: affordable housing in square and u-shaped patterns, with open green space and community gardens in the middle. This type of residential living creates a sense of ownership in the community, even for renters.
Last but not least, the Long Beach area is extremely short on industrial space. Before letting out a collective gasp, industrial real estate is not what it was 20 years ago. I'm not talking smokestacks here, but rather newly constructed low-rise, divisible space on the westside. This type of development would have done well near the airport as well, but it's probably too late for that now.
So there you have it. Go easy on me. I don't pretend to be an expert.
Also, the pike idea is great as i feel the same about that damn place. The roads running through that place are such a bad idea. To fill them with water would be interesting or at least fill them with landscaping, water features, etc. The last time i checked you can't drive a car through the irvine spectrum or the block in orange. not that i'm a big fan of those places, but at least they don't have roads running through the middle of them that make no sense.
I don't mind people stealing my ideas, in fact I wish they would. Okay Suja? Robert Garcia? Anyone?