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Which isn't fair, because I like Huell.
How on earth did Dana "dinosaur flatulence" ever get on the Science and Technology committee? Isn't there a Surfing and Fish Tacos committee?
Perhaps Bill should just say look you douchebag, if i was Indian wouldn't you have wanted me here seeing as how i created Microsoft and the money/jobs/economic power that came along with it.
Gates muddled and incoherent testimony that US universities are not producing enough STEM graduate was pure perjury: studies by Rand, AP Soan, Urban Institute has shown that there is a glut of STEMs and no shortage. Gates testimony that he pays most of his H1Bs over $100K/year is also a lie: according the LCA database 85% of H1Bs employed by MS are paid < $50K/year and are not even doing technical work. I applaud Rohrabacher for standing for use native born Americans who invented just about every modern technology. The computer industry that made Gates rich was invented by us native had born Americans NOT Gate's cheap, unimaginative, non-innovative $9/hour Chinese and Indian flunkies.
And I think claiming that Chinese and Indians are "unimaginative" and "non-innovative" pretty much puts you in that class.
Look around your home, find all the technological artifacts that were INVENTED in China and India. I did. I found none. The point is that these cultures compared to Europe and America have no proven track record of major technological innovation. So why should workers from these countries be given preference for tech jobs in the US?
>> And the point .... that Rohrabcaher’s questions and responses were
>> rhetorically pointless and generally incomprehensible.
Can you tell me exactly what he said you think is wrong? Do you dispute:
that H1B depresses wages and displaces American workers? That H1Bs are overall paid less by MS? Rohrabcaher is not the most articulate critic of H1B, but Gates is such a coward that he will not share a panel with them. I am referring to Dr. Norman Matloff and Dr. Ron Hjra. Gates is allowed to commit perjury because he is rich NOT because he is right.
>> Standardized testing?
That's it? Is that the BEST you can do? You missed noodles! Please note that nothing you mentioned came from India - the biggest source of H1Bs. The innovations you mentioned were done thousands of years ago-none are recent and all of them had analogous independent developments in Europe and the Middle East. Modern rocketry was developed in America and Russia: we landed on the moon and fifty years later China can barely get someone into orbit. Guttenberg independently invented moveable type press and started the publishing industry the revolutionized Europe - that didn't come from China. Cars were invented here NOT in China. Standardized testing? That was an extension of standardized parts which was invented by Henry Ford - is that a Chinese name? OK, you’ve got paper; if you want to give an H1B to an ancient Chinese mummy I help you. But, as for replacing American engineers with cheap help from China/India, consider this list of recent American innovations:
Thomas Jefferson(Democracy)
Ben Franklin(Electricity, BiFocals, Fire Dept, etc.)
Robert Morse(Telegraph-Digital Communication),
James Fergason(Combat Submarine),
Charles Goodyear(Vulcanization Rubber),
Herman Hollerith(Punch Cards,IBM)
Cyrus Field(Transatlantic cable)
George Eastman(Kodak,Roll Film)
Henry Ford(Auto Industy,Standardized parts),
Thomas Edison(Phonograph,Motion Pictures, Light bulb),
The Wright Brothers(Powered Flight),
Robert Goddard(Rocketry),
Philo T. Farnsworth(Electronic Television)
Lee DeForest(Vacumn Tube, Radio)
Edwin Howard Armstrong(FM Radio)
Vannevar Bush(Search Engine, Internet?)
Hewlett & Packard( HP)
Atanasoff &Berry(First Programmable Computer)
Edwin Land(Polaroid Camera)
Percy Lebaron Spencer(Microwave Oven)
Shockley, Brattain &Bardeen(Transistor)
George Pake (Xerox Parc)
Jack Kilby/Robert Noyce/Gordon Moore(Intel,Integrated Circuit)
Douglas Engelbart(Computer Mouse, Windows)
"Ted" Hoff Jr(Microprocessor,motherboard)
Tim Paterson(DOS)
Bricklin & Frankston(VisaCalc spreadsheet),
Rubenstien & Barnaby(WordStar word processor)
Ivan Edward Sutherland(Sketchpad)
Metcalfe & Boggs(Ethernet)
Alan Shugart(Floppy Disk)
Bill Joy(BSD, Java)
James Fergason(LCD Imporved)
Roberts & Mims(Altair personal computer)
Jobs & Wozniak(Apple Computer),
Gates & Allen(Microsoft,Windows)
Codd & Date(Relational Databse Model)
Larry Ellison(Oracle,Relational Database)
Marc Anderseen(Web Browser,Netscape)
None of these guys were guest workers from China or India. Most were notorisly poor students or largely self taught; the kind of people that Bill Gates would not hire. What would the world be like if the H1B program started in 1990 had been around a hundred years ago and these people had been displaced before they had the opportunity to make their great contributions? How many future members of this list will simple never go into STEM because of the abuses caused by H1B? That scares me, how about you?
>>Look around your home, find all the technological artifacts that were INVENTED in China and India. I did. I found none.
...if there was ever an example of the need for a good liberal arts education.
As for that (highly selective) list of major cultural accomplishments culled from some John Birch website: I think that you are confusing TECHNOLOGICAL ADVANCES with PATENTS.
Every study and every expert confirms that science and math education in places like China and India is light years ahead of those disciplines in the US. So yes, the US is great, rah-rah, and yes, other cultures--european and asian--have been hamstrung by intellectual orthodoxy, but Americans aren't learning the basics anymore. So while we may continue to be an *employer* of the world's most innovative thinkers, we won't necessarily produce the majority of them.
We can't even really pat ourselves on the back for democracy (nice try, though)--the US is rather late in a relatively long line of representative democracies. (Again, you might need a little humanities education to round out your linux guru-ness.)
Go ahead: explain to me how every American invention is proof of our greatness, and every non-American invention was either (a) inevitable and therefore unimpressive, or (b) too far in the past to be relevant.
I haven't checked this out, but if memory serves, the first programmable computer was actually the invention of a French weaver.
The Romans had fire brigades.
You'd thin out that list even more if you didn't give out a major award anytime someone came up with a new computer model.
you also write:
"What would the world be like if the H1B program started in 1990 had been around a hundred years ago and these people had been displaced before they had the opportunity to make their great contributions?"
We did have an H1B program. It was called "give me your tired, etc." Open up any history of labor and you'll get a whole list of protectionist rants against immigrants, like those from china (an wang, who invented a whole shitload of stuff), ireland (john holland, the submarine), germany (einstein, relativity), italy (enrico fermi, neutron reactor).
And that's not even counting Levi Strauss.
so tell me how this guy doesn't count...
Yes, it's selective because I selected the major technological( NOT cultureal) advances that have radically change human culrue and all of them have been made in American and Europe - not India or China.
>> Every study and every expert confirms that science and math education in
>> places like China and India is light years ahead of those disciplines in the
>> US.
Academic performance and the ability to be innovative are not NECESSARILY the same thing. History is peppered with examples of academic failures that have gone on to create many new innovations. The best example is Einstein who was at best a C student, blacklisted by his peers and only managed to do his work when he landed the patent clerk job. Sadly, in the world of Bill Gates, Einstein would not be able to get a job with Microsoft which is the problem with H1B. Had Einstein’s patent clerk job been given to a cheap worker from India or China, modern physics might not have been born.
>> but Americans aren’t learning the basics anymore
That's not true; there are many American's who do very well academically. One could argue that due to glut of STEM graduate both domestic and from abroad, that a degree in STEM just doesn't guarantee a good paying secure job anymore; due to H1B you can be replaced almost instantly from a worker from abroad. Why would a smart person waste 8-12 years getting an advanced degree only to work for very little money in a career that lasts only a few years?
>> Go ahead: explain to me how every American invention is proof of our
>> greatness, and every non-American invention was either (a) inevitable and
0>> therefore unimpressive, or (b) too far in the past to be relevant.
I just pointed out that almost all of the major technological innovations in the last 100 years occurred in America and Europe; these are the ones that have done more to change how we live than all the ones in the previous 10000. To me that's a sign of greatness and a credit to all humanity. Most of the examples from China ( and none from India) are centuries old. Why the gap? Gun powder and paper were invented centuries ago with not much after that. Then suddenly staring in Europe in the middle ages ( and later in America) technology takes off.
The point is this: no one is saying Asians or Indians are any smarter of dumber than Europeans or visa versa. Bill Gates is telling us that if we don't import these cheap workers America sill go into technological decline. Where is his proof of that? Since 1990, not a SINGLE H1B has started a technology company. So, based on the examples above why should we replace native born workers with workers from cultures that haven't made and major technological advances?
I never said Chinese and Indians did not count;. Wang was not an H1B; he immigrated as a child to the US fleeing oppression in China in the 1940s; he wasn't a guest worker. He as enculturated here in America.- years before 1990 when the current H1B program took its form. I have said that the guys coming in under H1B from China and India simply are not starting companies and industries like the lobbyists in DC are claiming. In fact, they are being used to outsource jobs to China and India not inventing new products and services.
>on the examples above why should we replace native born workers with workers
>from cultures that haven’t made and major technological advances?
Gosh. Most native-born Americans haven't started technology companies either.
What makes them preferred? Why do we have to treat the many-sigma tails of the distribution like those guys are representative of some special national trait?
Maybe you have been to China and India and have seen their tech companies?
In the end there is simply work/labor that needs to be performed. Nobody is asking every worker in America to start a tech company, but the work needs to be done. This debate should be about why we pay H1b workers less than native-born American workers, not about who the workers are. In fact, if Americans are supposed to be inherently more innovative, then what's the problem with replacing them with mindless robots when the innovative American can go out and do better things by, for example, starting a new tech company? [Mind you I do not believe that is a tolerable position, but it seems to be a logical extension of your reasoning.]
Is this an issue of an H1b worker not spending the money here, in local economies? Or is it just nativism? Is this just the hi-tech version of complaining that Wal-Mart has been putting local businesses out of business? Any help in explaining why this isn't just nativism would be very much appreciated.
An overwhelming majority of tech companies are started by native born Americans NOT H1Bs which lobbyists try to imply by muddling the issue of legal immigration with guest worker programs.
>> In the end there is simply work/labor that needs to be performed
That’s the labor side; on the other end people need to invent the new widgets like iPods, cars or computers. For some reason probably related to language and culture, that kind of thinking is not currently occurring in those countries.
>> This debate should be about why we pay H1b workers less
The reason is that the government lets them; the H1B program has so many loopholes that prevent paying a prevailing wage that some are paid as little as $9/hour for jobs that used to go to American for $100K/year.
>> what’s the problem with replacing them with mindless robots when the
>> innovative American can go out and do better things
Because Americans need money and leisure time to do that innovation. H1B caused wage suppression, displacement and working longer hours for less pay. Tech used to provide the kind of patent clerk jobs that supported Einstein. For example, Jobs and Wozniak had low level jobs at Silicon Valley tech companies in the early 1970s that gave them income, time and access to technology that ultimately lead to the formation of Apple Computer. Those kind of jobs are disappearing at an alarming rate; outsourcing by H1B is making it worse.
>> Is this an issue of an H1b worker not spending the money here, in local
>> economies?
85% of H1Bs earn less than $50K/year; your barber makes more. Only the top 10% are in the $100K/year category and are spending significant money in local communities.
>> Any help in explaining why this isn’t just nativism would be very much
>> appreciated.
It’s not “native vs. immigrant”; its “cheap guest worker vs. permanent resident”. Green card holders are pretty much being displaced by H1Bs like native born workers. H1Bs don't leave much of a foot print; they come here take jobs at low wages and then move the jobs over seas. If we eliminate H1Bs and give these jobs to permanent residents then we are creating a pool of good paying, long term jobs that allow people to innovate and pump money back into the local economy.
Am I less valuable because I'm a "native born" worker who hasn't made a gazillion bucks? Have I let down all my "C" student brethren? Am I only worthy of working in East Patagonia?
>> weaver
No. The theoretical concept of a programmable computer was invented by Charles Babbage; Ada Lovelace suggest that how calculations could be repeated to create an algorithm. She is credited to have been the first computer programmer even thought creating the machine was beyond the technology of the time. BTW, they were both Anglo British aristocrats like Alan Turing who a century later actually created the machine. No Indian or Chinese guest workers there.....
>> We did have an H1B program. It was called “give me your tired, etc.”
No. H1B is a direct government subsidy that allows for below market rates for labor; it just happens to use individuals from a foreign country who are more than willing to be indentured servants.
>> Open up any history of labor and you’ll get a whole list of protectionist
>> rants against immigrants,
H1Bs aren't immigrants their are classified as NIVs(None Immigrant Visa) holders.
>> like those from china (an wang, who invented a whole shitload of stuff)
Wang wasn't an H1B guest worker. He was raised here in the US.
>> ireland (john holland, the submarine), germany (einstein, relativity),
>> italy (enrico fermi, neutron reactor).
These guys were not H1Bs from China and India which is my point. The cultures of European countries seem to foster this kind of innovation. So, why are we replacing our knowledge workers with ones from counties that don't innovate?
>> arguments.
What arguments are those? Any why does personal wealth have anything to do with it?
>> Am I less valuable because I’m a “native born” worker
I'm confused here. Not sure where I said anyone was more valuable than some one else. If you are a guest worker like H1B are doing routine work that Americans could be doing but a below market rates, then yes, you should go home, and the job should go to a permanent resident.
>> standards of living?.... but puts up barriers to immigration and limits working
>> visas
That appears to be the conflict between the bordered political state and the borderless corporate state. In our age, people live within political corporations called countries but derive their income from borderless countries called multinational corporations. How wealth is distributed in this new world order has not been worked out. Until then the process will continue to be chaotic.
H1-Bs are supported by a lot of technology companies, software and hardware. In fact, there are plenty of engineering jobs to go around, and people who are seriously interested in becoming an engineer in America have plenty of opportunities and scholarship money floating around. The engineers coming here to work are not limited to Chinese and Indians, though they make up the bulk. Those engineers often come here because the business environment in their own country is not stable and there are not as many high-tech companies to ply their trade in.
Anyways, Rohrabacher is clearly wrong on this and nearly every issue, I hope everyone will help get him kicked out of office this election round and end the embarassment.
1. Gringos invent things; therefore, are more inherently valuable because you never know when a gringo will invent something
2. He hasn't invented anything, but deserves to be paid more than he is, because he might, at any point, invent something.
3. Non-gringos (who are inherently less creative and inventive--see exhaustive list of everything of any value in post 9) are stealing all our good high-tech jobs because they work for $9/hr.
4. LG hijacks posts throughout the web to post his anti-guest worker/gringo god rants (http://www.roughtype.com/archives/2007/10/micro...).
5. He lives in Arizona (see above link) and has no business hijacking this thread for his angry white man rants.
Did you notice the David Duke link on LG's website?
David Duke (racism, anti-semitism, bad hair cuts)
>> 1. Gringos invent things; therefore, are more inherently valuable because
>> you never know when a gringo will invent something.
Everyone invents things; however, most of the major technological innovations in the last 200 years have NOT been invented by people in China or India. Therefore, the lobbyist claims that we need to replace native born (Native American, Latino, white, black and Asian) with cheap intellectual labor from those countries and NOT invest in our own people is unfounded and highly dangerous. Their claim that H1Bs have founded Fortune 500 companies that employ millions is completely false.
>> 2. He hasn’t invented anything, but deserves to be paid more
>> than he is, because he might, at any point, invent something.
All people regardless of their citizenship status should be paid a prevailing wage; this is not the case with H1Bs. If you don't believe me, check out this link:
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08...
In order to be inventive, people need leisure time and money. The American people DO deserve the right to freely compete in their own country without the labor market being flooded by cheap workers from abroad which displace them from good paying, long term careers and suppress their wages.
>> 3. Non-gringos (who are inherently less creative and inventive — see
>> exhaustive list of everything of any value in post 9) are stealing all our good
>> high-tech jobs because they work for $9/hr.
Indians and Asians are not smarter or dumber than Europeans or vice versa. I am just pointing out that the CULTURES in these countries don’t seem to be producing the kind of thinking that leads to big leaps in innovation based on historical evidence. Therefore, replacing American worker with disposable cheap labor from these countries is a mistake that is now causing a decline in innovation in this country. If you are smart enough to cure AIDS are you dumb enough to work for $9/hour? Smart people are going to go where the money and job security is; H1B is driving our best and brightest out of STEM when we need them there the most.
>> 4. LG hijacks posts throughout the web to post his anti-guest worker/gringo
>> god rants (http://www.roughtype.com/archives/2007/10/micro...)
Yes, we Americans do rant when faced with tyrants like Bill Gates, Andy! It’s called freedom of speech; if you don’t like it, go to Cuba!
>> 5. He lives in Arizona (see above link) and has no business hijacking this
>> thread for his angry white man rants.
Actually, I was raised and lived most of my live in Orange County, CA. Having lived behind the “Orange Curtain”, I am very familiar with the politics of Dana Rohrabacher, Robert Dornan, John Schmitz and the other reactionary types there. That combined with the fact that I AM a displaced tech worker makes me very qualified to comment on Rohrabacher confrontation with Bill Gates.
Dude...seriously, you:
1) link to a David Duke promo video on your site. You have ZERO credilbility.
2) are using racial and ethnic stereotypes mixed in with immigration visa arguments. If you can't separate the two, you can't play with the smart kids.
Your OC heroes there do the same thing in their rhetoric, which are the same arguments used against new immigrants since the founding of this country. It plays well with that crowd.
BTW, I am a former tech worker, now in Advertising. I wasn't displaced, but I sure have my eye on those wily immigrants coming over here taking all our good, high-paying Advertising jobs.
Every farmer has a scarecrow.
>> 2) are using racial and ethnic stereotypes mixed ...
Not true. Can you cut and paste them into your next response and point to specific examples?
>> BTW, I am a former tech worker, now in Advertising
Kind of a waste, huh? You could have saved time and gone directly into advertising!
>> my eye on those wily immigrants coming over here taking all our
>> good, high-paying Advertising jobs.
Fortunately, there isn't an overt government program like H1B to import advertising people; however, it could happen. How long do you think your job would last if you company could get someone to do your job for $9/hour working in a boiler room?
>> Your OC heroes there do the same thing i.... same arguments used
>> against new immigrants .....
First, they’re not my heroes; secondly, H1B are not immigrants and the H1B program started in 1990; therefore, any previously used arguments to limit immigration could not be applied. In any event, in the 21st century, “immigration” should not be used to import cheap labor.
>> why don’t you just campaign for Collective Bargaining Rights a
Good idea. But, since H1Bs are not citizens they probably could not be in Unions!
Your words:
"The point is that these cultures compared to Europe and America have no proven track record of major technological innovation."
My point is that you are not unemployed because you've been replaced by tech workers, but because you are a racist tool whose interests include: "Overthrowing foreign governments, political assassinations, conspiracy theories, contract killings, political revolutions".
And anyone whose moniker is "Linux Guru" may as well be named "Angry Guy Who Was Fired Because He Made Everyone Else At Work Uncomfortable By Ranting About Those Foreign Workers Coming Over Here and Taking All Our Good Tech Jobs While Living at Home with Mom and Hating Women Who Don't Return His 40th Email On The Free Online Dating Site".
I guess "Linux Guru" is more efficient.
And, yes, I've given up trying to explain your failed logic, so making fun of you is more satisfying. And easier.
.
How is this a rational explanation for having David Duke on your web site? Is this "scarecrow" concept just the equivalent to having a burning cross on your web site or something?
>> “The point is that these cultures compared to Europe and America have no
>> proven track record of major technological innovation.”
I used the word "culture" not race. I'm still looking for a statement where I said something about one biological race being superior or inferior to another. Where is that?
>> My point is that you are not unemployed because ....
Here are some websites that have material about tech worker
displacement. They can explain it better than I:
http://www.programmersguild.org/
http://www.zazona.com/
http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.real.html
>> How is this a rational explanation for having David Duke on your web site?
If you can't figure that out, then you failed the test! ;)
Your cultural argument has been debunked on every blog you've posted in on.
If you were to solely make the argument that there are engineers who can't find jobs because tech firms are importing cheap talent, you'd be making a rational argument. And I wouldn't be having this discussion with you now.
If you would actually disavow David Duke instead of merely posting snarky comments, you'd be making a first step.
But until then, you're just an angry, bitter umemployed rascist who deserves to be out of work. If you're really so skilled, you wouldn't have any problem finding work. But it's easier just to stay at home and blog about unimaginative workers coming over here and taking your rightful employment.
>> I used the word “culture” not race. I’m still looking for a statement where I
>> said something about one biological race being superior or inferior to
>> another. Where is that?
Don't be a coward. Don't dodge the question! Where did I say one biological race was superior or inferior to another?
I've already explained that using your definition of cultural achievements isn't a valid argument AND is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
It does, however, dovetail nicely with lynch mob mentality and the ability to feel superior when you're an out-of-work, self-proclaimed "Linux Guru". What's the going rate for "Gurus" anyhow? There's lot's of jobs available, if you were actually qualified.
>> I used the word “culture” not race. I’m still looking for a statement where I
>> said something about one biological race being superior or inferior to
>> another. Where is that?
Fine. You aren't a *racist*--but you are still a BIGOT.
And it's "dodge" not "doge". Like I said: back to school for you, and this time, take something other than CS courses.