50 comments

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  john tecumseh

  1 year ago

  I agree. The idea of a place for Jews to live safe from antisemitism is a great idea, but in practice it's not working. The actions you imagine would go a long way to creating a more peaceful world.
  
  jdt
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  Middlebrow

  1 year ago

  Why the celebration of the inauspicious 60th anniversary? Is Israel now run by the Walt Disney Company?
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  Edward Akrin

  1 year ago

  Both Palestinian Arabs and Jews have a historic right to statehood in the region of Palestine. These two societies need secular governments far removed from the religious zealots who have clouded the issue of statehood with the foolish ideas of divine right and holy land. Returning the borders of Palestine and Israel to those of the 1947 Partition Plan will be a huge step forward. Hopefully the next generation of Palestinian and Israeli leader will the be more comprising. If the issue of native people returning to their ancestral homelands is truly a meaningful please donate your Long Beach property to the Gabrieleno-Tongva Tribe. The entirety of Long Beach was stolen from the Gabrieleno-Tongva Nation after a coordinated campaign of genocide and slavery.
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  howardx

  1 year ago

  where do you live edward? perhaps after you give your property back to the indians i would consider it. this talking point is ridiculous and just makes israel supporters look idiotic when using it.
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  julia rittner

  1 year ago

  Mr Brezenoff, shame on you. It's fine if you want to believe in a flase messiah, but to further betray your own people with this kind of propaganda is just unforgiveable. Israel is the only free country in the whole Middle East, including Africa, and if it weren't for Israel, we would probably be losing the war on terror. You should support the bravery and modernism of your Jewish people, not undermine them. I am so sad to read your ignorant words.
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  howardx

  1 year ago

  julia rittner,
  care to elaborate on this statement "if it weren’t for Israel, we would probably be losing the war on terror"? what exactly has israel done for us in the "war on terror"?
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  Andy

  1 year ago

  Amazing how with some people (#5), any ideas contrary to absolute adherence to fear-laden rhetoric is viewed as "traitorous", "betrayal" or "why do you hate our {fill in the blank}"?
  
  That mentality got us into Iraq in the first place and contributes nothing to a thoughful, cogently argued discussion.
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  john tecumseh

  1 year ago

  Towards the end of his life Niels Bohr used to dismiss new theories on the ground that they were not crazy enough.
  
  In his last interview Martin Heidegger said only a god can save us now.
  
  In three of his last four plays Shakespeare has a god come down from the sky to break up or resolve the action. No one has given a convincing explanation why for the first time at that late date he pulled that hoary theatrical device out of the clear blue sky, as it were. The Elizabethans called it a “theophany”. The Greeks called it “deus ex machina” which means “god out of a machine”.
  
  It’s not only crazy enough, it gives crazy a bad name.
  
  So Mercury conjunct with the great goddess Venus with a pinch of salt tossed in. It’s as good an explanation as any.
  
  Second verse, same as the first. Often in error, never in doubt. But the third time’s a charm.
  
  Good sense has never concluded otherwise.
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  LBRez

  1 year ago

  Maybe when the Arab states start treating the Palestinians as equals instead of human sacrifices for their will to wipe Israel off the map progress might be made towards peace in the region. Egypt builds a wall preventing Palestinians entering their country, do not supply any vital supplies, electricity, water--but turn a blind eye to smuggling arms into Gaza. Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, they all provide funds for arms and actual arms but refuse refugees, or those wanting to re-locate in their lands. Palestinians are cannon fodder in their fight to eliminate Israel and all Jews. Every truce, treaty, agreement that has been made has been broken by the Palestinians or Arab states, yet Israel continues to make them and then be shelled as those not signing the agreements send more funds and arms to those willing to kill Jews.
  
  Julia, this site is mostly commented on by those a bit further to the left of you and I; don't expect much agreement for any of your sentiments as expressed. Daniel is pretty much anti-Western/anti-capitalism and pro- anything anti-American so don't expect much there either. He suffers some type of guilt complex for what earlier generations, generations from a few centuries ago, did and feels you and I must somehow pay. But the lefties love him so let him play in the sandbox cause he throws sand at those they don't like.
  
  Now that I have said my two cents they will, as one commenter said on some other thread, "throw bricks through Rez' window." Just like the Hezbollah rockets raining down on Israeli schoolyards. Off to get my hardhat.
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  howardx

  1 year ago

  still waiting for an answer.
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  Andy

  1 year ago

  Re #9. Smug is quality that transcends left or right.
  
  Thanks for using that convenient broad brush to lump everyone who might not agree with you as a "leftie". Am I a "leftie" because I challenge a poster's opinion that he is "betraying his people" by offering a different path? Do you know my position on all issues?
  
  I doubt you know the author, but are able to suss out his deepest psychological issues and then appear offended that you might be the target of the same.
  
  Smug. Not attractive. Nor does it move a dialogue forward.
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  daniel brezenoff

  1 year ago

  You're damn right I'm a leftist. You're also damn right about the Muslim nations, which are blinded by prejudice and cynical political concerns. They ought to make peace with Israel. Of course.
  
  But here's the thing:
  
  Jews claim to be the Chosen People of the One True God of Love and Justice. So it's not enough to say "we'll play nice when the Arabs play nice," or "we're just defending our turf like everyone else does."
  
  If you're claiming to be "chosen," you have just set a higher standard yourself. I'm only asking Jews to live up to that standard, if they take it seriously, and put peace before real estate. Lead the way, instead of reacting in anger. Act holy.
  
  This actually has nothing to do with left or right. Zionism was largely a "liberal" movement, and Islamism is about as far fight as you can get. I defend neither; I'm speaking here for a new insane righteousness.
  
  Thanks for your comments everyone!
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  howardx

  1 year ago

  lbrez
  what hezzbollah rockets?
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  Dwight K Snider

  1 year ago

  Citizen Journalist Quotes of the Day: Stupidity
  
  "At least two thirds of our miseries spring from human stupidity, human malice and those great motivators and justifiers of malice and stupidity, idealism, dogmatism and proselytizing zeal on behalf of religious or political idols." Aldous Huxley
  
  "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." Albert Einstein
  
  (Source: Wisdom Quotes by Jone Johnson Lewis)
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  Kelson

  1 year ago

  Wow! I've been missing another thread with Andy and LBRez and howardx? I gotta stop working so hard.
  
  Can you clarify what you mean in #9 when you wrote:
  "He suffers some type of guilt complex for what earlier generations, generations from a few centuries ago, did and feels you and I must somehow pay."
  
  This sounds a little like "Original Sin." But rather than talk about that, I was wondering if this means that corporations and businesses should not be liable for past detrimental actions when those board members that were ultimately responsible for the illegal/immoral actions are no longer with those companies.
  Is there only personal, individual responsibility in this world? We do hold corporations to be liable, even when the shareholders have had no say whatsoever. Why should things be any different for States' and Governments liabilities?
  
  I guess this is only a little off-topic. Maybe you only write what you do because you see the name "Andy" and your head spins off, flying this way and that.
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  LBRez

  1 year ago

  I had a comment earlier that did not go up for some reason, oh well. Howie Google "Hezbollah rockets" and see what comes up, they have tens of thousands stockpiled, after lobbing into Israel and sending some to Gaza.
  
  There will be no peace in the Middle East until Israel is no longer in existence and all the Jews in the Middle East are either dead or leave; until then they will be bombed, murdered and pursued under the guise of Islam.
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  howardx

  1 year ago

  "sending some to gaza" again with the unsupported assertions. how did they accomplish that rez?
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  john tecumseh

  1 year ago

  If we are not responsible to for our ancestors' sins, do we still get to reap the benefits of their accomplishments?
  
  Does being anti-Zionist = anti-American?!?!
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  Andy

  1 year ago

  A Memorial Day wish and memory: to my Dad, a WWII vet whose outfit liberated a concentration camp at the end of the war and he showed me his correspondence and photos so I should be aware that nothing like this should ever happen again. To any group, for any reason.
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  Emmanuel Goldstein

  1 year ago

  ...and we will all sing Kumbaya as we march into the ovens...
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  LBRez

  1 year ago

  Andy, Blessings to your father, his comrades and the millions of others from nations around the world who freed those still alive and prevented Hitler and his allies from claiming more victims.
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  john tecumseh

  1 year ago

  Now to liberate the largest prison in history: gaza
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  Manishevitz

  1 year ago

  Gaza is liberated. It is in Palestinian control, the Palestinians voted for their government and their leadership. Israel is merely controlling its border with another state--just like Egypt is doing with its border with Gaza. How come Egypt does not open its border with Gaza? Why must Israel? The citizens of Gaza are getting the exact government they deserve since they voted for it. The Palestinians have exactly what they demanded: control of the Gaza Strip and the ability to run it. How is that a prison? They liberated themselves already!
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  Andy

  1 year ago

  Hey EG (#20): And as my Dad said, there's an a$$ for every pot. Thanks for missing the point. But your comment would make a nice bumper sticker on your Mercedes.
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  EG

  1 year ago

  ANDY...My post was a response to the above article and did not reference your prior comment. If I am an a$$ it is not for that. I might also point out that I drive a domestic product that displays no sticker. Your father must have known better than most what can happen to those who think there are rules that will be adhered to when dealing with people who fail to properly interpret the writing on the wall. Historically and statistically, back to the article, fools have fewer birthdays.
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  john tecumseh

  1 year ago

  I love when people call themselves Jews, but then show that they have zero faith in God whatsoever (#25) and only believe in the power of violence.
  
  If you claim the name "Jew", prove it by putting your faith in the invisible father and his Kingdom, instead of always running for an AK47 when trouble shows up.
  
  Sacrifice!
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  john tecumseh

  1 year ago

  Re gaza:
  
  This comment program won't accept LINKS. But please read the article 'life in occupied Gaza" by Stephen Lendman over at desertpeace.wordpress.com.
  
  gaza is not free.
  
  far from it.
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  john tecumseh

  1 year ago

  I love it when people claim to believe in God, but then mock anyone who believe love and brotherhood are possible on Earth, even though this is exactly what God tells us every time he shows up and writes a book.
  
  Love your neighbor
  put down your sword
  blessed are the peacemakers
  
  What a stupid hippie Jesus was! He should have stabbed pontius pilate in the heart!
  
  right?
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  Kelson

  1 year ago

  I thought he said "cheesemakers."
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  Andy

  1 year ago

  #25...Ah, a "domestic car"...I stand corrected.
  
  Your assertion that those who value discourse over dogma (and by faulty corollary, doormats for destruction), implies that the "fools" are the ones incapable of discerning a true threat from genocidal policies. Such oversimplification worked for Adolf and for George W and for fearmongering leaders throughout the ages...how nice of you to refresh their philosophies as it pertains to this article.
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  john tecumseh

  1 year ago

  Hitler wasn't a unique individual. Imperialism and racism and nationalism and militarism were joint ventures which included England, France, Belgium, Russia, and, yes, the United States. Hitler just took it to an extreme.
  
  Here's the choice: We either learn to love, or we die while (not) trying.
  
  "obey my commandments and I will bless you; curse your brothers and you will by destroyed"
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  john tecumseh

  1 year ago

  May 30, 2008
  U.S. Withdraws Fulbright Grants to Gaza
  By ETHAN BRONNER
  
  GAZA — The American State Department has withdrawn all Fulbright grants to Palestinian students in Gaza hoping to pursue advanced degrees at American institutions this fall because Israel has not granted them permission to leave.
  
  Israel has isolated this coastal strip, which is run by the militant group Hamas. Given that policy, the United States Consulate in Jerusalem said the grant money had been “redirected” to students elsewhere out of concern that it would go to waste if the Palestinian students were forced to remain in Gaza.
  
  A letter was sent by e-mail to the students on Thursday telling them of the cancellation. Abdulrahman Abdullah, 30, who had been hoping to study for an M.B.A. at one of several American universities on his Fulbright, was in shock when he read it.
  
  “If we are talking about peace and mutual understanding, it means investing in people who will later contribute to Palestinian society,” he said. “I am against Hamas. Their acts and policies are wrong. Israel talks about a Palestinian state. But who will build that state if we can get no training?”
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  Manishevitz

  1 year ago

  So let Egypt let them out, give them citizenship and apply for visas; oh yeah Egypt doesn't want to help them. Better yet, get Hamas to quit state sponsored murder of Israeli citizens and recognize the state of Israel and its right to exist. Maybe then a path to peace would open and future Palestinians would benefit from what Hamas denies those under its rule now. Reap what ye sow, they elected a terrorist group to govern, they live with the result.
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  Andy

  1 year ago

  Fine. Everybody's to blame. Now what?
  
  Just pave over the whole sacred area and put up the Home Depot that was supposed to go on the wetlands. And a Six Flags over the Ancient Kingdoms of Judah.
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  john tecumseh

  1 year ago

  Manishevitz, you demonstrate Brezenoff's point exactly: You want to claim "chosen" status (I'm sure) but you aren't willing to lead, with righteousness, towards peace - you just blame the other guy.
  
  Right, like Israel doesnt kill civilians (oops - more palestinian civilians have died by a factor of three in the intifada than Jews, even if you exclude suicide bombers as victims)
  
  If you're chosen, step up!
  
  which is more important - peace? Or land?
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  Manishevitz

  1 year ago

  Your 3-1 ratio is totally wrong as terrorists routinely claim victims are "civilians". As long as those stats are clung to there will not be reconcilliation. Interesting that you acknowledge intifada--the terrorists breaking Arafat's "word" on peace and attacking Israel. What is more important to the Arabs, peace or land? Israel has given up land in accordance with agreements, only to be attacked. Arabs don't want peace, they want Israel gone and all the Jews as well. Intifada is about killing Jews not finding peace. Israel would like nothing more than peace and has time and again been betrayed by those who sign agreement after agreement.
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  Dwight K Snider

  1 year ago

  I have a silent madness. I'm mad that nobody else is mad. And to be perfectly honest it's quite maddening. What I don't understand, and for some reason can't understand, is why nobody understands? If everybody expressed his or her madness at people for not getting mad maybe all the madness would stop. Which is understandable, but it still makes me mad that nobody else is mad at the madness. Stop the madness!
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  howardx

  1 year ago

  manishevitz
  what agreements are you referring to specifically? im not expecting an answer, israel supporters tend to clam up when someone calls them on their histrionic "facts"
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  Manishevitz

  1 year ago

  1979 Egypt-Israeli treaty and recongition. Egypt continues to allow arms to be smuggled into Gaza until 2005 when PA takes over Gaza.
  1993 Oslo-stage 1, Israel and Palistinians agree to recognize right of other to exist
  1995 Oslo-stage 2. Interim agreement; Israel withdraws from much of the West Bank and Gaza; Palistinian Authority established, PA is recognized by Israel.
  1997 Israel redeploys out of Hebron understanding it will not become haven for terror attacks on Israel
  1998 Israel redeploys more troops out of disputed areas, Palestinians agree to correct violations of Oslo accords
  2002 Saudi Peace Initiative, Israel to pull back to pre-1967 borders, PA to suppress terror attacks, critical part of agreement is Palestinian refugees cannot stay in Lebanon--Lebanese does not want to take care of them, have to move back to unoccupied territories
  August 2005 Israel leaves Gaza Strip and more of the West Bank, control and governance given to PA
  September 2005 Hamas pledges to respect cease fire
  Oct 2005 Fatah wins majority over Hamas to rule, fighting between the two
  Nov 2005 rockets begin being fired into Sderot and other areas of Israel
  Jan 2006 Hamas wins majority, vow to never recognize Israel. Worldwide boycott of Hamas govt with supplies, goods until recognition of Israel
  June 2006 Palistinian Authority announces truce, Israeli soldier kidnapped, 2 others killed; Israel invades Gaza to get soldier back, stop rocket attacks
  July 2006 Hezzbollah invades Israel from Lebanon, kill 3 kidnap 2 soldiers, war with Hezzbollah in Lebanon begins
  August 2006 Cease fire negotiated through UN
  Nov 2006 Israel/PA announce truce for Gaza strip, Israel maintains truce, rockets continue to be fired from Gaza
  Feb 2007 Hammas and Fatah reach truce; Hammas restates it will never recognize Israel, U.S./Israel say must recognize Israel, cease terror attacks, disarm terror groups; Hammas refuses
  
  Or should I clam up to fulfill your expectations? Palestinians have broken every truce, agreement, cease fire and rockets continue to rain down on Israel from Gaza.
  
  Off to Dunkin Donuts.
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  Dwight K Snider

  1 year ago

  Stay mad Manishevitz until the madness stops!
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  howardx

  1 year ago

  as i expected, half the things you listed were not "agreements" at all and your interpretation of why any truces didnt last is biased and partisan to say the least. you are expecting hamas to hold to truces israel never agreed to, its not a truce if israel is still killing palestinians. should i bring up the ratio of israeli to palestinian deaths? continued illegal settlement building? no im sure i dont need to.
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  john tecumseh

  1 year ago

  Soldiers serving in an occupying force cannot be "kidnapped"; the Israeli soldiers were CAPTURED, it happens in war, and it's actually legal under Geneva accords. That you, and the whole world media, continue to refer to that event as a kidnapping, tells us everything we need to know. When Israel nabs a teenager they've "captured an insurgent" or something; when Palestinians grab an occupying soldier FROM HIS POST we call it kidnapping. What a freaking joke.
  
  In any case, even if Israel is 100% right and Palestinians 100% wrong, so what? If Jews are chosen, they should just get over it and take a loss for love.
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  Manishevitz

  1 year ago

  So Jews should have submitted to the Holocaust to "just get over it and take a loss for love." Jews should open their borders, disband their army, get on their knees and pray to "just get over it and take a loss for love" as the terrorists murder them and wipe out their people, their culture and their state. I get it, the Jews are expendable in your quest for peace so that the murders and terrorists of Hamas, Hezbollah, Syria, Iran, and on and on get what they want.
  
  Until you understand that Israel wants peace and its enemies want the destruction of Israel you will never understand this conflict. Your blindness equates to ignorance.
  
  Tzeth'a Leshalom VeShuvh'a Leshalom. Go in peace and return in peace.
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  john tecumseh

  1 year ago

  Israel wants peace, but it also wants to keep its stolen land. Israel wants peace, but it also wants to build illegal settlements. Israel wants peace, but it wants to tell the Palestinians who they can elect to govern them. Israel wants peace, but it wants to control all the water and ports in the levant.
  
  Comparing the Nazi army to the Palestinians is a sick joke. The Palestinians are an occupied people; Germans were not. Israel is one of the most well-armed and wealthiest societies in history; German Jews were not.
  
  The cause of the conflicts in the levant is that the Jews decided they could take Palestine by force in 1947 because God promised the land. That Muslims cant accept their presence sucks, but it's the reality. Jews have chosen to fight, rather than accept that reality. So Israel wants peace? Maybe, but they want to win more.
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  Manishevitz

  1 year ago

  Uh, the Jews did not take Palestine by force in 1947, your thinking they did shows you need to study history. In 1917, during WWI, Britain the "Balfour Declaration" promising a Jewish homeland in Palestine, shortly thereafter British take control of Jerusalem from Ottoman Empire. In 1947 after Britain turned the issue over to the U.N., the British territory of Palestine was partitioned into an Arab state and a Jewish state. An Arab blockade of Jerusalem started and attacks on Jews and Jewish settlement--almost all of which had existed for decades. In 1948 the Jewish government was formed and at that time an army was brought together out of militias form the different cities and settlements. 1948 was when the fighting started in earnest, virtually all Arab nations declared war on Israel and about mid-way through the year the Israel War for Independence started.
  
  Palestine has been to the mid-East like Belgium to Europe, always under some other country or nation. Roman, Egyptians, finally the Ottomans. Until WW1 and the partition from the Ottoman Empire Jews and Arabs lived somewhat peacefully together. It was not until the U.N. resolution establishing Israel that the violence escalated. And it was not until the 1970's that the Palestinians engaged in terrorist acts outside of Israel, and obviously not until late '80s and early '90s that we became targets from non-Palestinian Arab/Muslim groups using Israel as their cause celebre initially to mask their desire for a worldwide Islamic caliphate.
  
  Your last line is a head scratcher, for an Israeli there is no difference for if they do not "win" they know there is no peace as they will continue to be attacked and terrorized until there are no Jews or Israel, or both, left. They choose to defend themselves, if you wish to call this fighting then so be it, yes continue to fight against those who put bombs on children and send them into buses and markets, fight agains those who set up in schools and homes and use them as bases to fire rockets into Jewish homes and schools.
  
  Ultimately the Jews were offered Israel by the U.N., why would they have said "no?"
  
  I know none of this will matter to those who hate Israel or see some type of moral equivalence between defending against suicide bombers and the suiced bombers themselves. And because we cannot see eye to eye our expectation is that those living in the environment day after day will?
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  Matzahman

  1 year ago

  Manishevitz,
  You've wasting your time with these morons. They only know how to parrot the propaganda of the exterminators.
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  john tecumseh

  1 year ago

  Israel was created by force, whether it was the British Army or the bombing - by Jews - of the camp David hotel, whether it's the continued occupation of lands owned and farmed by Arabs for centuries, or the control of water supplies. Yes, the Jews should have said no - they should have waited for the Messiah to lead them home, as their God ordered.
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  john tecumseh

  1 year ago

  correction: obviously that's the King David Hotel. I am very tired.
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  MrSnippy

  1 year ago

  You're very stupid too.
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  john tecumseh

  1 year ago

  Wow, mr snippy - did it take you a long time to come up with that pithy, witty comment? Did you do it by yourself, or did someone help you? In any case, of course you're right - I'm a moron. I can barely feed myself. How I manage to string sentences together is a mystery, and my SAT scores must have been a fluke, because - since I disagree with you - I am obviously mentally retarded. Anyone who thinks Israel's existence is causing more problems than it solves must be a drooling Neanderthal. Thanks for pointing that out, and I do look forward to you contining to add your deliciously insightful voice to our exciting debates, oh great and wondroud intellect that you are. I only hope that stoopid people like me can keep up with your astoundingly sophisticated arguments. Either way, I'm just honored to be in the electronic presence of such a towering genius as yourself. Let me know if there's anything I can do to win your love, the lack of which is keeping me from sleep.
  
  Oy.
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